Nick Leeson will always be remembered as the rogue trader whose fraudulent and unauthorised trades resulted in the 1995 collapse of Barings Bank.
He ran up losses of £862 million ( £1.7 billion in today's money) went on the run and as a result, served four years in Changi Prison in Singapore.
In prison, conditions were basic, he was locked up 23 hours a day for two years and ended up working for 35 pence a week washing dishes.
He survived cancer and has shown remarkable resilience in rising from the ashes and now earns £5,000 a night as an after-dinner speaker. Nick lives with his wife Leona, 50, and children in a five-bedroomed house in Galway, Ireland.
Loaded: Are you happy with life in Galway? It must be so different to the hurly-burly of the money markets and your previous life as a trader.
"It's different but I’m also at a different stage of life. Those early years were all about me and my ambition to be successful and achieve, combined with a huge fear of failure. I’m now the sum of all my experiences and very much focused on my family and helping them along their path in life. I was 57 a while back, so I’ve now spent more years as ‘the guy that broke the bank’ as opposed to plain old me."
Loaded: It's quite ironic that you are working for the Red Mist Market Enforcement Unit as a private investigator. What kind of work are you doing? You’re a gamekeeper, not a poacher now, how does that feel?
“There’s some irony, I get that, but the financial markets have long been a source of mystery for many who don’t work in the industry. It's often these same people who are cajoled and persuaded into making investments in the same space. When something goes wrong, they come looking for help. Over the years, friends have invested in crypto scams, bought a stock that has been misrepresented in some form, or been forced out of a position by various questionable antics by the banks and they often look for some help in pursuing the wrongdoing. Red Mist MEU is the culmination of all of that along with other market professionals who look to redress the imbalance. It's not a crusade but there is a need.
Loaded: Presumably, your experience of working in the markets will help you sniff out any fraudulent goings on.
“Absolutely, the normal recourse is to a lawyer but you’ll find that their experience is often lacking as well. They haven’t worked in the markets and you need someone who truly understands what is going on, how certain procedures have been overcome etc.
Loaded: Have the markets changed a lot since you were trading back then? Are the pitfalls still the same?
“Of course. At the most basic level, everything is automated these days, as opposed to markets that were open outcry which has improved transparency. It’s all about managing risk these days as it should be and traders are far more accountable than they were 30 years ago. The controls, processes, systems, and people are far better than they were in my day. The difference really is light and day. But you still have scandal. Credit Suisse, Archegos and FTX are the three massive recent disasters that immediately come to mind and all could have been avoided so it's still far from perfect. Barings was described several decades ago as the ‘financial disaster that nobody would ever forget’ - Wrong! "
Loaded: What are your views on the crypto scams of today? Is the investor at fault for not doing their research, or should there be tighter measures to protect naive individuals from unregulated blockchain organisations?
“Unfortunately, crypto scams are two a penny but in reality, they are not much different from scams in the financial services industry that have existed for years. Simple 'pump and dump' schemes have been around for decades from penny stocks to crypto scams as they are now. In my opinion, they are simple confidence tricks - build up a bit of confidence and then leave everyone else holding the baby. It’s getting worse at the moment with all of these 'meme' crypto currencies.
“Simple rule - if it looks too good to be true, it usually is. and don't make any investment without some research. It is difficult to protect a naive investor - stupid is as stupid does is a phrase that comes to mind but a good starting point would be better personal finance education in school.”
Loaded: Do you actively trade or invest now or do you stay well away from trading? The recent fluctuations in the stock market and the ever-changing financial world must pose temptation and there's no one better qualified to cash in than you.
“I still trade every day. I’m a lot better at risk management but still far from perfect. I'm naturally attracted to volatility so the type of trades I take are not for everybody.”
Loaded: When you dabble in the markets, with stocks and shares, what's the reaction of traders when they realise who they are speaking with? Are they too young to realise if you are buying stocks? Or do you just buy and sell online these days?
“The majority of what I do is online these days, but I might have a bid in with a broker for a stock and you see the stock trade below your bid price. I’ll call the broker, get some excuse that is largely rubbish and end up telling them not to take the piss. They work on the basis that they can bamboozle you with a bit of jargon. Some of the markets are a little more lawless than others. Another reason for Red Mist MEU. Everyone knows stocks can go up or down but do you have any tips for Joe Public? I was talking at an event in the UK about two years ago for a big investment firm and they invited me along with their top fund managers to address the audience. I was the entertainment after they had conducted the serious business. It was all about Vodafone, the moves they were making to streamline the business, and the investments they were making – a strong BUY recommendation. It was trading for about £1 at the time, I got suckered into it, bought some at 91p, bought some more at around 65p and I’m still waiting for it to recover!! So, you don’t need my tips but you don’t need most people’s tips either. Do a bit of research, understand the risk and at least then you have nobody to blame but yourself. "
Loaded: Do you know how on earth it got so bad, in the crazy days in Singapore? Presumably you were drinking heavily and taking uppers and downers or other stuff to keep awake etc.
“Alcohol was a constant companion, nothing else. I would go out and drink to a stage where I'd be able to sleep. In fact, I would often black out. Everything was about avoidance, avoiding the realisation of the losses but more importantly for me, avoiding the realisation of my own failure. It was a long time ago and you cannot turn the clock back and do something differently, but do you still regret what happened? Of course, but there’s a caveat to that. I regret everything that happened during that period but I don’t regret how my life has turned out – wife, family, friends, values etc. None of these would have necessarily changed without the disaster occurring."
Loaded: The amazing thing is that you have completely turned your life around, and overcome cancer. How good does that feel?
“You’ll never see me blowing my own trumpet but I’ve had to rebuild my self-esteem, my self-belief, and my self-worth since that time. That provides you an inner-strength or inner-confidence that you aren’t necessarily the ogre that some may think. But I, better than anyone, know how reckless and stupid I was during that period of my life. I was responsible for the collapse of the bank and am fully accountable. "
Loaded: Do you feel lucky you got a second chance as many others do not?
“Of course, I am very fortunate – it's not always easy. I’m always thinking about whether something is appropriate (including this interview), so I often rely on the advice of well-placed others. People are still fascinated by your story but on the plus side, it has led to a successful life, lecturing, advising companies, and going on the after-dinner circuit. Keynote speeches and after dinner talks have been my main source of income since I was released from Singapore in 1999. So, I’m still going strong after nearly 25 years and the feedback is always very good. I’m as busy with it now as I was in 1999, so I must be doing something right.”
Loaded: What's your next chapter, and plans for the future?
“I’d like to think that my best years are still in front of me. I’d like my family to have and achieve everything that they wish for. A re-make of Rogue Trader, maybe a book about how I got away with it really – only kidding!!”
Loaded: Any final advice for wannabe investors?
“Understand the risk.”
Loaded: Now that you have turned your life around and helped so many people to make the right choices through your candid talks, can you name three stocks you'd hedge your bets on for 2024 investment? Loaded disclaimer: This is not financial advice and we will NOT hold Nick Leeson accountable should the stock prices fall.!
“I have two main equity holdings - very different profiles.One as volatile as they come - AVACTA. The other is far more sensible and protected somewhat by a strong dividend - VODAFONE.”